Carl and Richard talk to John Papa about his views on the client development landscape. John has recently left Microsoft where he was a Silverlight and Windows 8 evangelist. The conversation starts off talking about the state of Silverlight now that Silverlight 5 has shipped and the ascent of HTML 5. John talks about his favorite HTML 5 libraries, including KnockoutJS and JS Render. Finally, the show wraps up with how Windows Phone 7 and Kinect will change the world.