Colleen Schnettler  0:00 
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Michele Hansen  0:46 
So Colleen, you launched your SaaS, Simple File Upload, in December. And for the past couple of months now, we have been tracking how it's doing, how many people are signing up, your revenue, all those things. So last time we talked, you were on track for $325 in MRR and I think the previous time we had talked about before that which is maybe like two weeks before that. You're at $120 MRR. And so I'm curious, like, where are we now?

Colleen Schnettler  1:29 
So since we last spoke, I had one additional signups.

Michele Hansen
Nice.

Colleen Schnettler
So that puts me at $360 MRR. And I really I mean, I feel like I've won the lottery, Michele, like it feels amazing.

Michele Hansen  1:39 
Isn't SaaS great?

Colleen Schnettler  1:41 
So I mean, it was so hard to get to this point. But right now it just feels good. I think it's important to note that I couldn't charge for it until February 4, which was three weeks ago. So in three weeks, I've gone from zero MRR to $360. That's why I feel like I've won the lottery, like it's just.

Michele Hansen  1:59 
That's amazing. Have you annualize that yet? like have you let yourself like multiply that by 12. And just like think about that for a second?

Colleen Schnettler  2:05 
Too much. It's too much dreaming. I'm not quite ready to dream that big yet. But it feels really great. I mean, I am kind of floored --

Michele Hansen
$4,000 a year, by the way --

Colleen Schnettler
I could fly to Europe someday with that money when it's safe to fly. Yeah, so it feels really amazing to see this growth. And I have mentioned that I've been really busy the past couple weeks with with real paid work. And so I haven't put a lot of time or energy into this and people are still signing up.

Michele Hansen  2:43 
So this is real paid work the differences.

Colleen Schnettler  2:47 
Yeah, I shouldn't call --

Michele Hansen  2:50 
You don't have to be sort of like a like button chair, in order to make that revenue and make those sales, right like cuz whenever you get a consulting client, this is where these are so different. You have to work for every single customer in order to make that happen. Like you have to be out meeting people and making contacts and landing each client. But when you have customers, and they can just sign up whenever they need it. And they don't have to talk to you or do anything with you at all, before paying you, it's a huge shift.

Colleen Schnettler  3:30 
Yes, I mean, it's it's ultimately, you know, right now I trade my time for money. And as a consultant, I'm very, very aware of my time almost to my own detriment. And with this, yeah, I mean, of course, I put a ton of time in upfront, but people just sign up in the middle of the night and sweet. Like, that's awesome, I didn't have to do anything!

Michele Hansen  3:52 
So I'm curious. When you were when you had a you know, sort of we call them corporate jobs like were you? I wonder if were you a consultant like were you time tracking?

Colleen Schnettler
No.

Michele Hansen
Oh, okay.

Colleen Schnettler  4:05 
So I've done them. All right. I've done the salaried not time track to time tracking as what I do now. And now the product. So it's exciting.

Michele Hansen  4:14 
Yeah, it is exciting. I just remember when I went from working at an agency and having to, you know, time track three minutes spent replying to an email to then working in a product company and not having to time track and it was like, Oh, my God, this is -- this is amazing.

Colleen Schnettler  4:34 
Yeah, it feels totally different. So I'm, you know, I'm trying to enjoy it. And I'm also trying to think about, like, how I can continue to try and find -- I don't really feel like I found any kind of real product market fit. Like I've definitely found a pain point because people are signing up. But, I mean, I think that that there's a lot of opportunity to find deeper pain points in more specific niches. Because not everyone is this is the weirdest thing I know I keep bringing this up, but like people are signing up, but only about 50% of the people who sign up and they have to pay me when they sign up, are using it. And I'm emailing them. And I'm trying to see if I can help them. But if they don't use it, they're going to churn. So I feel like I'm a little I don't want to say concerned, but I'm cognizant of the fact that I think I'm going to have a high churn rate this first month, because people are going to be like, why am I paying for this thing I don't use?

Michele Hansen  5:27 
Yeah, I think that's something worth diving into. And you mentioned that you're emailing people. And we've talked a little bit about different approaches, you've taken to those emails, in terms of copy and subject lines, and all those sorts of things. And so I'm curious, if you've been, like trying anything differently, or if you've had any more people get back to you. And you've kind of gotten any more insight into why that might be happening?

Colleen Schnettler  5:53 
Nope. I mean, I can't get anyone...

Michele Hansen
That sounds frustrating.

Colleen Schnettler
It is it's frustrating. So in the beginning, I had a free tier, which I no longer have, there's no free free option. And the people in the free tier would would engage with me a lot more and and they seemed it was seemed like because they were very grateful. I mean, most of them expressed gratitude that I had solved this problem for them for free. No one emailed me back who was paying me money. Now to be fair, it's only what 1012 people that are paying me money, they don't want to talk to me. So I'm right. Have you been

Michele Hansen  6:30 
Like, can you like look at their email addresses and see like, are they Gmails that are signing up? Or like people at companies?

Colleen Schnettler  6:38 
There are Gmails? It's both. It's a combination of Gmail and custom domains. And it you know, I haven't even been looking to see if they're, you know, what, it just occurred to me, I haven't even been checking to see if those emails are opened. So there could be something else going on, or they just don't want to talk to me, which is is what it is, I think, though, like why I just I don't want to stress about it. But like, why would you sign up for something you have to pay for and not use it? Like did i know.

Michele Hansen  7:07 
I think that's a very valid concern. And something that's worth diving into like that's, you see that when people aren't using a product, they are more likely sure to cancel it like that is that is very fair.

Now there are some products that people buy, and they buy them aspirationally. And whether or not they use the product is sort of almost tangential to whether they're getting value out of it like so, for example, like gym memberships are a great example of this. Like, there's a there's a great Planet Money podcast on i think i think it's Planet Fitness, this business model.

Colleen Schnettler  7:47 
And, like, they

Michele Hansen  7:48 
know that most people who sign up are not going to use it. And they sign up for that because they want it to be because like it's aspirational. And they have this whole thing, or I like this, why they have like monthly bagel days and pizza days or whatever. So people like come back and they feel like they're getting value out of it. And they're like, Oh yeah, I'm gonna like, I'm going to start coming to the gym, like, I'm going to do it. But in actuality, if everybody who had a membership showed up to their gym, they would not have nearly enough equipment or spaces for them. And so it's baked into their business model, that people will not use it.

However, I don't think anyone is buying cloud storage aspirationally...

Colleen Schnettler  8:27 
and don't either. Feel like you get it because you want it.

Michele Hansen  8:31 
Why aren't you buying my files? Like I really liked this, my New Year's Resolution is start storing my files. Um, like, I mean, maybe there's, you know, cases of that with like, people who were, you know, saving important documents or whatnot or photos, like personal photos, but I think in a business context, you know, I I don't think that whole building in intentional non-users/inactive accounts, it is like really relevant.

But yeah, I mean, but yes, especially with a subscription business, if someone is not using the product. In general, especially in a business context, especially for something that's designed for regular use, like if this was the kind of product that people only need once a year, or they have a subscription, and then it's, they only use it when they have like a specific acute problem. But your product is designed to be used, you know, daily or weekly, or, you know, at a fairly frequent context. And so, so yeah, I think you're justified and trying to figure out what the heck is going on there and see, yeah, I'll

Colleen Schnettler  9:45 
tell you what, why they aren't using it. So I'm trying to follow up with those people to figure out what that's about. And you know, it's just consistently on this, this journey to try and find where it fits the best. So one of the kind of fun things I did, I think I've mentioned before that you can either install it with a JavaScript snippet or a React component. And I have been trying to speed learn React, so I could maintain the React component, because I don't actually know react. And so one of my friends has a really cool site protege.dev, and they correlate junior developer positions. So it's kind of neat, because it's something I'm really like excited about, because I, you know, you know that I'm really passionate about helping people get into tech. And so they have need for a file uploader. So he is using Simple File Upload the React component. So it's and they do live streaming it live, live, twitching, live streaming, what's it called? You know what I mean? I went live twitch live streaming. Yeah. Anyway, it's becoming this really cool thing in this community, I'm in where a bunch of people are participating, and working on the site together, and they live, switch, Twitch, stream it, and they're using my uploader. And it's great, because he's talking to me, right? So. So he's using the React component. So I'm getting really good feedback on the React component. And he's incorporating it into his like, beautiful, really professional site. So I'm really getting an opportunity to test that component really deeply. And, for example, he pointed out, he brought to my attention that it wasn't keyboard accessible, which I hadn't even realized until he brought that to my attention. So I was able to fix that quickly. You know, because it's just me, so I can just fix it. So that was cool.

Michele Hansen
That's so cool.

Colleen Schnettler
Yeah, I'm excited about it. Like because I am, I'm dogfooding this on several applications, so I'm using the heck out of it. But I always use the JavaScript snippet. So it's nice to have someone like testing the React component as well.

Michele Hansen  11:51 
So do you have your own clients as paying customers?

Colleen Schnettler  11:55 
I do.

Michele Hansen
Hey-oh

Colleen Schnettler
I disclosed that to them. Just so you know, this is my upload. Like, you won't get better customer service. And then

Michele Hansen  12:11 
I wonder how like, do your clients react to that? Or are they, you know, kind of like, Oh, sweet, like, we just saved you, you know, six hours of consulting for this monthly fee? like whatever, or

Colleen Schnettler  12:21 
Yeah, they didn't seem to really care. They just wanted it to work. Like many people are like, okay,

Michele Hansen  12:27 
They just want the job done.

Colleen Schnettler  12:29 
they just want the job done. Oh, my goodness, that makes me think of you had some tweet about Jobs To Be Done this week. And I thought about, but it was like, it was so funny, because here we are every week and you tell me about Jobs To Be Done. And I hear you, and I hear you. And it's like, I can't internalize it. And I was thinking about no one responding to my emails. And in your tweet, you said something about don't ask the customer how to solve the problem.

Michele Hansen
Yeah.

Colleen Schnettler
And I realized, despite my weekly coaching with you, I think I'm still doing that. Because I'm like, What feature do you want? Like, would it be better if we had multiple file uploads? Where's the focus? I need to refocus on what are you trying to do?

Michele Hansen
Yes!

Colleen Schnettler
So yeah, it's so funny, because you tell me that all the time. It's like, just like, it didn't sink in until I saw that. I was like, wait, I'm asking them what they want in terms of like a feature set. But that's not, that's not the problem they're trying to solve. Right? Whatever I offers a feature set is, what are they trying to do? Like, you know, how do I help them solve their own problems?

Michele Hansen  13:38 
Yeah, and how you figure that out as listening to their problems, but it is your job to figure out what features they need. And you figure out what features they need, by listening to what their problems are, and listening to what they are trying to solve. But and I'm so glad you brought this up, because I think this is where a lot of people trip up on customer research, or they've kind of had a bad experience. Because, you know, they're like, well, we asked the customers what they wanted, and it wasn't useful, or they didn't tell us anything good. Or they all wanted different things. And it's like, well, that's because you asked them the wrong question. You can't, you know, ask them to basically do your work for you. And, you know, I, one of the objections I get from people sometimes is, oh, well, if you know, if Henry Ford had asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse, not a car at you know, as sort of a way of dismissing talking to customers that, you know, customers are not going to come up with innovations. And it's like, well, yeah, like your job as the entrepreneur is the person to come up with those things and to listen and pull from that not that customers are asking for a faster horse but that even if they say they want a faster horse, what they're saying I want to be able to go places faster. I don't want the expensive taking care of a horse or it's expensive to take care of, of a horse like, like, those are the things that you listen to and then hearing out from many different people, you you piece together. Okay, what are the problems? And then how does that drive me towards a solution? And maybe that's something that's hugely breakthrough, like a car, or maybe it's a marginal improvement, that it's still okay.

Like, I think it's like one of my pet peeves is like, you can have a company and not change the world. And that's okay.

Colleen Schnettler  15:34 
Yeah, for sure. I have I think, like many small-time founders, like I have this, this is a little bit of a tangent, but whatever. I have this dream of getting funding, like, like small.

Michele Hansen
Do you!

Colleen Schnettler
Well, okay, so let me just tell you...

Michele Hansen
You never told me that!

Colleen Schnettler
Well, because it sounds like it sounds like the the easy way.

Michele Hansen  15:54 
I mean, I know it's a really, does it sound like it, like make you like legit, like at all, it's like a

Colleen Schnettler  15:58 
Well first of all legitimacy. Absolutely. Legitimacy. And then also like, it, it, I mean, it would be awesome. But we talk a lot about time pressures on this podcast like, man, if I didn't have to do other work, like, I feel like I would have so much time to do this work. Like, it would be amazing.

Michele Hansen  16:18 
Colleen, you know, I'm an investor in Earnest Capital, and their whole thing is giving money to bootstrappers. So they can go full time on their SaaS products that already have revenue.

Colleen Schnettler  16:28 
I do not I told you that.

Michele Hansen  16:32 
Like, and they don't require referrals. Like it's not like a traditional VC where, you know, like, you had to have, you know, gone to Stanford with some guy, whoever who can connect you like, you know, they're not like that. But I'm just gonna throw that out there. Cuz I guess we've never talked about this before, even though I talked to you every week for like, what, two or three years?

Colleen Schnettler
For a long time. Yes, we've never talked about that. But it's kind of an interesting thing. When you look at something I had been, of course, this is like, okay, so maybe not, of course, because you didn't know. But this is like a secret dream of mine.

Michele Hansen  17:03 
Is it? Oh, let's dive into this.

Colleen Schnettler  17:05 
Well, but it's interesting. So if you think about it, so someone who has received funding, and kind of made a video about like how the numbers play out if you get funded. And it was really interesting, because he was talking about, like, if you just want to grow your business to $10K MRR and sit there, you should definitely not take funding, because the way you would have to pay back that initial investment, like, you know, it doesn't make sense. It's if you want to grow your business to like $100k MRR? Like how big do you want to be that that? Where's where is the balance? In terms of like, what kind of business you want? So I've been thinking a little bit about like, what kind of business do I want this to be? Do I want to go all in full time? And like, take a run at the big guys who are making $60 million a year? So there's space in that market? Or do I just want like a little like $5 a month software business?

Michele Hansen  18:01 
I think that's a fair question. I also think you could have a bootstrapped $100K a month company, I'm sorry, sorry, my dog in the background. That's Nigel, some of you may have seen pictures of him. He also just because like if you don't take funding now and you grow it to $100, $150, $200k a month company, like you could take funding at that point, like wasn't it last summer that one password took like a ton of funding, after being bootstrapped the whole time. And also, like, I think Atlassian, like Atlassian was completely bootstrapped until they went public.

Colleen Schnettler  18:38 
This is a fun dream world to live in.

Michele Hansen  18:41 
I'm just saying like, you don't necessarily have to take the funding right now. Or at $10K, or 50, or $100K or like, whatever that is. And like, you also don't have to decide what kind of company you want now, like, like, you mean, you can dream about it? And you're the you know, you're more than allowed to do that. But you don't have to feel like you're, you're committing to something that's not changeable in the future.

Colleen Schnettler  19:12 
Yeah, I see what you mean. And I'd like to clarify for my listeners, and no one is offering me funding like, this is not something this is just my dream world, right. No one's offering it.

Michele Hansen  19:22 
Why do you feel like you need it?

Colleen Schnettler  19:25 
so I could stop consulting, and I could work on this. I just feel like and it's because this month is really busy. Okay, to be fair.

Michele Hansen  19:33 
So it's like personal stress that's kind of driving that.

Colleen Schnettler  19:36 
Yeah. So my background to the side project, which I don't know that I ever shared is I have always wanted to do this. And so I consulted pretty hardcore for a while and then I saved up a bunch of money so I could have taken almost up to a year off been able to pay my bills and worked on my project, but then COVID hit and we had a lot of unexpected financial stressors, so I had to start working again. And I enjoy work. I enjoy consulting, like, I don't mean to make it sound like a terrible thing like actually really like it. But what I had really wanted to do was do side projects. So right now, especially this month, because we're about to move and work, consulting work is really busy. I just feel the pressure, like, for example, I launched this thing it's doing so well. I mean, I think it's doing well. And I don't have any time to work on it. Like, like, I just feel like if I just had more time, there's so much I could do with it. So for me, it's a time pressure time financial stress. That's, that's why you know, you like for me, like that's why i would i would do something like that.

Michele Hansen  20:40 
You mentioned that you have this, you know, the sort of like financial stress going on right now. And I'm not going to make you go into that. But what I am curious about is, is that a temporary thing? Like, is that going to, you know, mitigate in a couple of weeks or a couple of months? Or does that look like a permanent thing that will keep you consulting?

Colleen Schnettler  21:07 
I don't know, it's hard to say. I mean, it's not going to go away completely, because of some life changes we're making. And so there will be there's a but but you know, it's not tremendous, like yeah, I don't know,

Michele Hansen  21:27 
Does what you're doing right now not feel sustainable?

Colleen Schnettler
What do you mean, what I'm doing right now?

Michele Hansen
Like, like working and like, like consulting and working on Simple File Upload.

Colleen Schnettler
So it's like trying to do those things? Is it a matter of like, you feel like you cannot do both of them, or you aren't giving Simple File Upload as much attention as you want to.

Colleen Schnettler  21:51 
It's a combination of both. It's so funny, because I got on this other podcast last week, Virtual Coffee, great group, great podcast. And I taught I gave this like long soliloquy about work life balance, and how I take the weekends off. And I cannot take the weekends off, and consult and work on Simple File Upload, like just not possible. Now, what I can do is I can work hard consulting for a couple months, scale that back and have more time for Simple File Upload, which is probably the right answer, and then I can just do more 50/50 it's just been a little crazy this month, I think I think I'm just feeling the stress of everything going on in my life right now. And so it seems like the get out of jail free card if someone just handed me $200,000. Sweet.

Michele Hansen  22:36 
I had a conversation with someone a couple of weeks ago, who has a SaaS who, you know, said they're feeling some, like financial stresses and feeling you know, like they weren't growing as much as they wanted to, and like things would be easier if they were growing more and everything. And actually almost came close to taking funding. And like basically like, you know, had the offer for the check, like, in hand.

Colleen Schnettler
interesting.

Michele Hansen
And, and they turned it down.

Colleen Schnettler
Interesting.

Michele Hansen
Because it turned out that that kind of stress was going to be temporary.

Colleen Schnettler  23:13 
Yeah. I mean, honestly, for me, it's probably temporary. And it's probably just like a knee jerk reaction to everything that's going on. Yeah, because because it does seem to change. Like you said, you can always change your mind. I just wish I had more time. I feel like I'm in this really cool place where I finally have launched my product, I have definitely not found what they call it, you know, product market fit. I don't think I've found that because I think I'll know when I find that because I'm still pushing, but it's only been a month. So I feel

Michele Hansen
Yeah, it's so early.

Colleen Schnettler
It's so early. So I feel like I'm at this critical juncture right now where it's either push and make this a thing or just let it kind of marinate in the you know, 300 to 500 whatever it's going to be dollar range and let it sit there and I really want to push and make this a thing and so I think I'm just feeling that pressure of like I really want to push this and I just don't have the time.

Michele Hansen  24:06 
So I I also don't know if there's really enough data there for it to like to get a valuation of the company and to know what would be a fair price for some percentage of the company. But it sounds like thinking about funding is helpful for you because I think you said this or maybe it just popped into my head but like did you say it's sort of like a get out of jail free card, but it feels like okay, for the stress that you're dealing with right now. And so what you can do is say, I'm going to reevaluate this in three months.

Colleen Schnettler
Yeah, that's a good idea.

Michele Hansen
Like write down how you feel write down the you know the reasons why right now like if if you know I said here calling here's a check for what, what amount of money what would make it worth it for you like $50,000, $100,000.

Colleen Schnettler  25:00 
Yeah, something like that. Okay,

Michele Hansen  25:01 
let's, let's, let's say that Okay, all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna be the, the Oh my god, what are the Danish? The let know that the the TV show The Shark Tank, right?

Colleen Schnettler 25:13 
Oh yes.

Michele Hansen  25:14 
They call it Lion Den in Danish. And I'm like, kind of a lion. I'm like, like, you know, here's the check, like, what would that do for you right now? And what would you do with that? And also, how do you think it would change your approach to the business? I just write all those things down and then go and look at that. Okay, like, two or three months from now, like, capture all of that feeling? Because I think that

Colleen Schnettler  25:41 
that's a great idea. Yeah,

Michele Hansen  25:42 
Like that stress you're feeling is valid. Like, that's real. And that's, like, totally normal. Like, it's very stressful to have a job and a side project and like that, that's normal. So, you know, honor that feeling. But, don't necessarily make a decision from that position of stress right now, especially when you're so early. And you have all these other factors that aren't normally going on.

Colleen Schnettler  26:07 
Yeah. And again, no one is offering me money, like no one would offer me money with... What I know, you asked you. I never know. I'm not gonna ask because you're right,

Michele Hansen  26:16 
that you're gonna get angel investors sliding into your DMS after this.

Colleen Schnettler  26:18 
Angel investors. Where are you? Did you hear? So? Um, no, I think you're right. I think that, first of all, again, no one's offering me money, but also making that kind that's a big decision and making that kind of decision from a position of stress. I think I've mentioned casually that we are we're making a big move. I mean, not across the ocean like you did. But still, it feels like a big move --

Michele Hansen
Across the country.

Colleen Schnettler
Yeah, we're moving in about four weeks across the country. So I think I'm feeling the stress of that. And work is actually going great. I'm loving what I'm doing consulting, so that's not a problem.

Michele Hansen
And you're still getting people signing up, even though you're like doing, like, quote unquote, nothing.

Colleen Schnettler
So this is the beauty of SaaS, right? It's like magical, like, yes, someone signed up, and I did nothing. That's awesome. At first, I was really trying to, like temper my excitement about it. But honestly, Michelle, the other day, I went back and I listened to one of our first podcasts. And like, it is just so cool. To see for me going to just being like, I can't think of anything. This is so hard to like, like, I can't even have met six months ago. I can't imagine myself here. You know what I mean?

Michele Hansen  27:24 
Yeah, like, it's so amazing. It's like, I've gotten like a front row seat to this and it's just it brings me so much vicarious joy, like to see this.

Colleen Schnettler  27:37 
Yeah, I can't even like listening to one of my early podcasts with all I wanted was to just launch something. I mean, I just it's so cool. And so I hopefully like I can't even see what six months ahead of me. Right? Like, like, that's kind of how I'm thinking about this position. I'm in like, yeah, I could totally this could become a non-thing like this could not work. But I you know, I --

Michele Hansen
Early signs are good.

Colleen Schnettler
Early signs are good. Yeah. And I think I've gotten better since we started this to it filtering through the the, the bad internet, SaaS information and the good internet SAS information.

Michele Hansen
What do you mean by that?

Colleen Schnettler
I mean, like so before, I was following people on Twitter who are like, Oh, I started a SAS and I made $10,000 the first month, like, that's not helpful, because that almost never happened.

Michele Hansen
Hustle porn.

Colleen Schnettler
That's what it's called hustle porn. Yeah, I was probably way too much hustle porn. And so now I'm following people who are like trying to build long term sustainable businesses. And what I've noticed is one compared to them, I'm doing really well. Sorry, guys, I love Your love your tweets. And too, like, this takes a long time. Right? Like, this takes a long time. That's just how it goes. Like you. You just can't give up and you just have to keep learning and learning when to pivot and trying to find like, where you fit.

Michele Hansen  28:57 
Yes.

Colleen Schnettler  29:02 
I'm coming around to it. But um, but yeah, so I think for me, the biggest thing, like I said, I've just been so busy. I haven't had time to work on this.

But I have so much to do marketing wise, like I haven't done like they're such, even this little business stuff. No one tells you about like, trying to get a terms and conditions. Like, why has that been so hard?

Michele Hansen  29:23 
Oh, why has it been hard?

Colleen Schnettler  29:24 
Well, it's been hard because I do file management. So I paid a company online to create a terms and conditions for me. It was like 50 bucks. And it was like just, like not specific enough. I had thought they would give me more opportunity to customize it. So it just wasn't really quite good enough. And they were really nice. I asked for a refund and you know, and when they asked me why I cancelled I gave them a very detailed answer I thought of you and I thought it would be nice of you. Now as I said, I said a very nice lady, or--

Michele Hansen 29:56 
Paying it forward, or, refunding it forward.

Colleen Schnettler  29:59 
I said Yeah, he or she, but or, I don't know, but if they a day, right like I don't I don't mean to presume gender, but um, I responded with a detailed email while I was looking for this particular clause and you didn't have this, and I was looking for this particular thing, and you didn't have this. So but there's like, I mean, just little stuff like that. And then someone recommended a service like, I don't want her I'm not i'm not big enough to have Terms and Conditions for service service as a service. Yeah, so they hosted for you, but it's a monthly thing. Oh, hmm. Who knew? Like, just sort of, it's like, when I started consulting, just sorting through all this stuff is annoying. I need

Michele Hansen  30:39 
I will say one thing that, you know, someone told me, once that I have found is relevant is like looking at your competitors Terms of Service. And then, you know, sort of using those as a starting point, quite frankly, usually making them friendlier to the customer. Yeah. But using that at least as a as a starting point for the different kinds of issues that they are, you know, bringing forward and putting in there. And I mean, quite frankly, competition on Terms of Service is actually a huge part of our business and why we get customers coming to us from the major players. So, yeah, it's it's not something to overlook, and it can actually be a competitive advantage for you.

Colleen Schnettler  31:25 
So it's just something I didn't realize I'd have to spend time on. You thought I thought I'd be at like five minutes, like, go grab one, put it on my site, and it just hasn't hasn't turned out that way.

Michele Hansen  31:34 
I think I need the we talked a little bit about how things that are not engineering tasks require more mental overhead. And yes, yeah, because that's not your your, you know, sort of home domain. And it I mean, it makes sense that like, you know, these these, sometimes they feel like you're sort of like running around swatting flies. And it's like, I have to do this, and I really just want to be doing something else, but I'm just swatting all of these things. But yeah, I mean, I would not I, it takes some mental energy, but I would not overlook that and use those terms of service to see if there's a way to make your service friendlier to the customer. I mean, one of our major competitors' Terms of Service was like, literally, you know, like, it's on trial in Congress this week. So you know, there's there was a hearing about it, so don't overlook that. It's a it's a that that that can as much be bizdev as having a call with someone.

Colleen Schnettler  32:42 
Yeah. Yeah, I just wish someone did all this for me.

Michele Hansen
You could hire a lawyer to do it, too.

Colleen Schnettler
But I mean, I'm not there yet. Right. Like, yeah, like I think eventually.

Michele Hansen  32:49 
So it's a couple thousand dollars. 1,000 and yeah.

Colleen Schnettler  32:53 
Yeah once I'm once I'm big time, ask me again. I will hire a lawyer and get one that's specific to my company. But now being little time like I need something. But

Michele Hansen  33:03 
And a privacy policy.

Colleen Schnettler  33:05 
Yes. And a privacy policy. Yep.

Michele Hansen  33:06 
All that stuff. So and it probably you need a GDPR policy.

Colleen Schnettler  33:11 
Yep, too. I

Michele Hansen  33:12 
mean, maybe you can work in like GDPR and ccpa. The California one? Yeah. People, I guess you wouldn't need a DPA a data processing agreement, right, because you're not necessarily. I have no idea. Presently, as a GDPR thing, maybe, maybe, sorry, I'm just making you were like, I'm overwhelmed by this. And I'm like, let me throw out a bunch of acronyms and make it more overwhelming.

Colleen Schnettler  33:35 
Thank you, Michele. Now I'm overwhelmed.

Colleen Schnettler  33:47 
All right. Well, after that stellar advice, thank you. I think. I think that's gonna wrap up this week's episode of the software social podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a review. And you can reach us on Twitter at @softwaresocpod.