How to make a living while you’re making a difference. A weekly show for independent professionals who want to go from six-figures to seven while increasing their impact on the world.
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Seth Godin - The Generosity of Authority
Seth Godin joins us to explain the generosity of authority.Talking PointsWhat “authority” means to SethThe first things that Seth thinks of when it comes to funding a missionTwo different gamesWriting every dayLevels of freelancingImposter syndromePodcastingAkimbo workshopsComfort zone vs. safety zonePublishingWord of mouthWriting a bookFinding your alignmentMaking a decisionQuotable Quotes“The more they charge, the more authority they actually get.” –SG“If you win the game to be the most generous, then you earn the privilege in the area where you seek to have authority, to exchange status.” –SG“If you’re not feeling like an imposter, I would argue, you’re not working hard enough.” –SG“If you think your secret is what people are paying for, you’re crazy.” –SGRelated LinksSeth GodinAkimbo WorkshopsTranscriptJonathan StarkHello and welcome to the Business of Authority. I'm Jonathan Stark.Rochelle MoultonAnd I'm Rochelle Moulton.Jonathan StarkAnd today we are joined by legendary marketer Seth Godin. Seth, welcome to the show.Seth GodinThank you for having me.Jonathan StarkThank you so much for joining us. I'm very excited about this conversation. I've been thinking about it for two years, so I'll try not to pummel you with random questions that are too weird but the first we want to start with, given the show title, it's the Business of Authority, what does the word authority mean to you in the context of a business?Seth GodinThat's a great place to start. I don't think it means what most people use the word authority to mean. Authority usually means what a manager has, which is power, which is the ability to get other people to do what want even if they don't want to do it. I would say that in your case what we're actually talking about is reputation. What we're talking about is a variation of trust, which is trust to the power of provability, meaning not only do I trust you but I can go to my partners, my bosses and my employees and insist that they trust you as well because you have earned that through your reputation.Jonathan StarkYes, I love the distinction. It's not the boss kind of authority. You will "respect my authorita", fabulous. Okay, so what are first things that come to mind when someone is starting to establish authority? I think it happens over time, has a lot to do with, like you said, trust and that trust has to exist in something and that something is the audience. So, you're on a mission and authority is on a mission. They're moving toward a vision that they see in the future. They're trying to lead people to that goal. What are the first things that come to mind when you think about funding that mission by building a business around it so that you can keep doing it?Seth GodinThere was a pre-question which I'll do first. Yes, as you pointed out it is in the eye of the beholder. There's a funny joke, being headed executive gets bumped off a flight on Delta and marches up to the counter and says, "Do you know who I am?", and the person behind the counter gets on the PA system and says, "Medical alert, we have someone with amnesia at the front desk. He doesn't know who he is." If she doesn't know who you are then it doesn't matter who you are and this is the McKinsey Trap. The McKinsey Trap is you're getting paid X number of dollars at McKinsey and you realize they're marking you up 4X, so you quit McKinsey and go out on your own and you can't even get paid a quarter of what you used to get paid. Well, it's the same consultant giving the same advice, so why is there a 16X difference in the comp. The reason is because when you hire McKinsey you are not buying advice. You are buying the privilege of telling the board what McKinsey said and that's what they sell. That is my current definition of useful authority in this case. It has nothing to do with proving you are right and everything to do with the mantel that you have earned in the eye of the consumer.Seth GodinNow, what that gets us is to is this whole riff about status roles because status roles are everything in our culture. Who's up? Who's down? Who gets to eat first? Why is someone dating a supermodel? Why did you buy that car? What neighborhood do you live in? All of these are status exchanges where we are trying to buy safety, or leverage or authority by acquisition of something that gives us a sense of status, so McKinsey maintains their status by acting like a diva, by not making sales calls, by charging extra. The more they charge the more authority they actually get and so while we may be tempted to hustle to get our authority, to somehow prove that we are right we are actually giving up authority when you do that because in our culture the signals that come with authority are not the same as the signals that come from the desperate chase of proving you're right.Jonathan StarkYeah and that's something we talk about all the time. I think the tricky part for people who are listening who probably agree with that, it's like, "But you can't start off by acting like a diva", right? I mean, that doesn't seem to track. There has to be this sort of progression where there's trust built and then later when you're IDEO and you've got every Fortune 500 logo on your homepage and they're all amazing brands, at a certain point it feels like you reach a critical mass and you can maintain that authority position with these status games that you just referred to. Is that the way you start though? You just go out on your own and you play hard to get with your clients. That doesn't seem like it would work.Seth GodinCorrect, another great insight. In fact, there's two games and I just described the second game. The first game is a completely different game. It is not a junior version of the other game. It is the game of who can be the most generous, that if you win the game to be the most generous then you earn the privilege in the area where you seek to have authority to exchange status.Seth GodinSo, I'll use my example. Not because I have an enormous amount of authority because I haven't sought to do that but you blog every day for a thousand days in a row. That's free. You make YouTube videos. That's free but then someone calls you up to give a speech. That's not free. That's expensive and what that means is you don't give speeches for a while because you're not willing to give a $500.00 speech because people who have something to say don't give $500.00 speeches. You will give a free speech at Ted. You will organize your own conference. Organizing a conference is generous but if you want me to get on a plane and come give a speech to your organization, that's expensive and I'm fine if you don't want to buy it because I got other things I can do that are generous instead.Jonathan StarkWell, that tracks with our normal story here, that's for sure. You may or may not know this but both Rochelle and I are daily emailers inspired by you and a friend of mine, Philip Morgan. It's transformative on your business. It's not just in the sense of you're "giving away the farm" so to speak in a particular format and being generous and sharing the ideas, honestly I think of it every day as "who can I help today," how am I going to help them, what can I write today that's going to help the kind of person who's on my list. That's great and it leads to all the things we're talking about, the expensive speeches for example, but the thing about it that it is not obvious from the outside is that i...
Marketing Productively
Talking PointsThe importance of marketing yourselfHaving a strategy for your marketing tacticsWhy you have feast and famine cyclesTarget marketsBeing specific in your marketingDistributionBuilding marketing into your routinePicking a marketing method that has the least friction for your personality and skillsAmplifying your message with social mediaUsing social media in a way that fits your brand and styleAvoiding getting sucked in by social mediaWhy a rut is a good signHow your body of work can add upHow you can leverage content that you’ve already createdMarketing as a form of teachingHow to form a marketing habitQuotable Quotes“If you’re running a business, you need to be marketing, full stop.” –JS“Until you get really specific, those doors are closed.” –RM“You may spend – especially when you first start something – as much time distributing, or even more, as you do creating the content.” –RM“I really want everyone to have a daily habit around marketing their business.” –JS
Marketing Productively
Talking PointsThe importance of marketing yourselfHaving a strategy for your marketing tacticsWhy you have feast and famine cyclesTarget marketsBeing specific in your marketingDistributionBuilding marketing into your routinePicking a marketing method that has the least friction for your personality and skillsAmplifying your message with social mediaUsing social media in a way that fits your brand and styleAvoiding getting sucked in by social mediaWhy a rut is a good signHow your body of work can add upHow you can leverage content that you’ve already createdMarketing as a form of teachingHow to form a marketing habitQuotable Quotes“If you’re running a business, you need to be marketing, full stop.” –JS“Until you get really specific, those doors are closed.” –RM“You may spend – especially when you first start something – as much time distributing, or even more, as you do creating the content.” –RM“I really want everyone to have a daily habit around marketing their business.” –JS LINKSRochelle | Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | InstagramJonathan | Daily List | Website | Ditcherville | LinkedIn | Twitter
Don't Bury The Lead
Start by answering "What's in it for me?"Talking PointsIs it lead or lede?What does it mean to bury the lead?Burying the lead in conversationUsing the pain point as your headlineKnowing when to ask the questionLetting the audience know what’s in it for themConversational emails that aren’t about contentBurying the lead means you’re not exhibiting authority and confidenceMaking sure that you’re being clear for your audienceChoosing the right audienceQuotable Quotes“Burying the lead in a conversation is just as bad an idea when you’re having a sales conversation as it is on your website.” –RM“If you know what your ideal buyer's pain is, and you can just say ‘hey, do you have this pain?’ That’s the headline.” –JS“If you do nothing else before a conversation, an email, a point on the website, the way you’re restructuring your website, you just ask from your viewer’s perspective, “what’s in it for me?” What do they get from this page?” –RM”You want to find the perfect language that will resonate with the people who you’re trying to reach, right? Well then you’re going to have to decide exactly who you're trying to reach.” –JS
Don't Bury The Lead
Start by answering "What's in it for me?"Talking PointsIs it lead or lede?What does it mean to bury the lead?Burying the lead in conversationUsing the pain point as your headlineKnowing when to ask the questionLetting the audience know what’s in it for themConversational emails that aren’t about contentBurying the lead means you’re not exhibiting authority and confidenceMaking sure that you’re being clear for your audienceChoosing the right audienceQuotable Quotes“Burying the lead in a conversation is just as bad an idea when you’re having a sales conversation as it is on your website.” –RM“If you know what your ideal buyer's pain is, and you can just say ‘hey, do you have this pain?’ That’s the headline.” –JS“If you do nothing else before a conversation, an email, a point on the website, the way you’re restructuring your website, you just ask from your viewer’s perspective, “what’s in it for me?” What do they get from this page?” –RM”You want to find the perfect language that will resonate with the people who you’re trying to reach, right? Well then you’re going to have to decide exactly who you're trying to reach.” –JS LINKSRochelle | Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | InstagramJonathan | Daily List | Website | Ditcherville | LinkedIn | Twitter
Staying Solo
Is staying solo the right choice for you?Talking PointsThe difference between “small” and “not a lot of employees”The advantages of staying soloBeing able to be very specificBuilding alliancesWays to address David and Goliath matchupsWhen you’re a solo act, your clients always get to deal with the number one personWhat soloists need to watch out forWhale clientsWhy you need to always be marketingLearning how to say a really firm noQuotable Quotes“One of the advantages of staying small is that you can compete with those big players by going super, super specific.” –JS“Big firms are made up of individual people, and those individual people may refer you!” –RM“Big firms bill by the hour, so… they like slow computers.” —JS“Some would say ABS, always be selling, as opposed to always be closing, but I think you have to always be marketing.” –RM
Staying Solo
Is staying solo the right choice for you?Talking PointsThe difference between “small” and “not a lot of employees”The advantages of staying soloBeing able to be very specificBuilding alliancesWays to address David and Goliath matchupsWhen you’re a solo act, your clients always get to deal with the number one personWhat soloists need to watch out forWhale clientsWhy you need to always be marketingLearning how to say a really firm noQuotable Quotes“One of the advantages of staying small is that you can compete with those big players by going super, super specific.” –JS“Big firms are made up of individual people, and those individual people may refer you!” –RM“Big firms bill by the hour, so… they like slow computers.” —JS“Some would say ABS, always be selling, as opposed to always be closing, but I think you have to always be marketing.” –RM LINKSRochelle | Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | InstagramJonathan | Daily List | Website | Ditcherville | LinkedIn | Twitter
Do You Do Or Do You Know?
Talking PointsHow do you know if you’re limiting yourself?What are skills which aren’t risky and are easily priced?The difference between someone who does something or someone who knows somethingAddiction to “saving the day”Gouging versus getting money for your servicesHow the “hero’s journey” works with our clients’ storiesThe importance of delegationGuide versus “Doing It for Them”Why do when you can teach?How to keep your skills sharp when you are teachingLetting go of what’s not strategicWriting a bookCharging services for “knitting”The problems with hourly billingDeveloping your IP (intellectual property)Quotable Quotes“If you really care about your craft, and you want to spread it, you’re not going to be able to do that if you’re always a fireman putting out fires.” – JS“You don’t really want to be Luke [Skywalker] in your marketing, you want to be Obi-Wan.” – JS“There’s that shift in your mind where you don’t just have to ‘do’, you can teach, you can coach, you can show the way, you can be the guide.” – RM“If you approach your consulting as a technician, you’re never going to solve the bigger problems of the organization.” – RMLinks and ResourcesThe E-Myth Revisited by Michael GerberBuilding a StoryBrand by Donald MillerFlawless Consulting by Peter Block LINKSRochelle | Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | InstagramJonathan | Daily List | Website | Ditcherville | LinkedIn | Twitter
Do You Do Or Do You Know?
Talking PointsHow do you know if you’re limiting yourself?What are skills which aren’t risky and are easily priced?The difference between someone who does something or someone who knows somethingAddiction to “saving the day”Gouging versus getting money for your servicesHow the “hero’s journey” works with our clients’ storiesThe importance of delegationGuide versus “Doing It for Them”Why do when you can teach?How to keep your skills sharp when you are teachingLetting go of what’s not strategicWriting a bookCharging services for “knitting”The problems with hourly billingDeveloping your IP (intellectual property)Quotable Quotes“If you really care about your craft, and you want to spread it, you’re not going to be able to do that if you’re always a fireman putting out fires.” – JS“You don’t really want to be Luke [Skywalker] in your marketing, you want to be Obi-Wan.” – JS“There’s that shift in your mind where you don’t just have to ‘do’, you can teach, you can coach, you can show the way, you can be the guide.” – RM“If you approach your consulting as a technician, you’re never going to solve the bigger problems of the organization.” – RMLinks and ResourcesThe E-Myth Revisited by Michael GerberBuilding a StoryBrand by Donald MillerFlawless Consulting by Peter Block
How To Pivot
Do you know how to pivot? Talking Points Taking a new direction while keeping your core business running well Taking a half-pivot Tying a new idea with a different message into your core business Getting people on your side Helping people Having confidence in your idea Marketing your new idea without losing current clients What clients do notice and what they don’t notice Quotable Quotes “You don’t want to be locked into your own success. You want to be able to go out and do something different.” –RM “All you need is like a magnifying glass, focus your energy, and boom! It’s on fire.” –JS “If you’re helping people, you will make money. It’s like a law, almost.” –JS “If you’re worried about changing your website without confusing your current clients, remember that unless you’ve got a membership site, your clients aren’t visiting your website.” –RM
How To Pivot
Do you know how to pivot? Talking Points Taking a new direction while keeping your core business running well Taking a half-pivot Tying a new idea with a different message into your core business Getting people on your side Helping people Having confidence in your idea Marketing your new idea without losing current clients What clients do notice and what they don’t notice Quotable Quotes “You don’t want to be locked into your own success. You want to be able to go out and do something different.” –RM “All you need is like a magnifying glass, focus your energy, and boom! It’s on fire.” –JS “If you’re helping people, you will make money. It’s like a law, almost.” –JS “If you’re worried about changing your website without confusing your current clients, remember that unless you’ve got a membership site, your clients aren’t visiting your website.” –RM LINKSRochelle | Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | InstagramJonathan | Daily List | Website | Ditcherville | LinkedIn | Twitter
Authority Marketing Round-Up
The authority marketing roundup. Talking Points Speaking and writing as an authority Who your content is for What promises you’re making What’s good about starting a podcast Picking something from the speaking category that you’re comfortable with How you can make your audience feel The power of webinars Running a workshop Livestreaming Email lists Video compared to audio Writing for other publications How speaking and writing inform each other Continuous practice Social media activity Answer bombs Quotable Quotes “Whenever I’m creating something, the first thing I want to know is who’s it for?” –JS “Your opinion of yourself may be completely warped.” –RM “Just remember that people learn in different ways, and there are some people who would so much rather watch a video than read anything you’re going to write. And vice versa.” –RM “When you’re watching video, you’re watching it. You’re probably sitting down, you might be at your computer or in a chair or whatever. When you’re listening to this show, you’re probably in your life.” –JS LINKSRochelle | Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | InstagramJonathan | Daily List | Website | Ditcherville | LinkedIn | Twitter
Authority Marketing Round-Up
The authority marketing roundup. Talking Points Speaking and writing as an authority Who your content is for What promises you’re making What’s good about starting a podcast Picking something from the speaking category that you’re comfortable with How you can make your audience feel The power of webinars Running a workshop Livestreaming Email lists Video compared to audio Writing for other publications How speaking and writing inform each other Continuous practice Social media activity Answer bombs Quotable Quotes “Whenever I’m creating something, the first thing I want to know is who’s it for?” –JS “Your opinion of yourself may be completely warped.” –RM “Just remember that people learn in different ways, and there are some people who would so much rather watch a video than read anything you’re going to write. And vice versa.” –RM “When you’re watching video, you’re watching it. You’re probably sitting down, you might be at your computer or in a chair or whatever. When you’re listening to this show, you’re probably in your life.” –JS
Making Time For Marketing
Are you making enough time for marketing? Talking Points How many hours a week to spend marketing How marketing can be devalued because it’s not billable Making the time for marketing How to block out marketing time Thinking of marketing as a deadline Reaching the point where marketing becomes an automatic thing Making public commitments How daily marketing can add up Farming vs. hunting Being honest about what isn’t working Quotable Quotes “It doesn’t happen if you don’t make time for it. Even when you’re not billing by the hour, it can be hard to create – I would call the marketing habit.” –JS “Marketing should always be on your mind if you have a business. That’s part of the mindset, you never let it go.” –RM “I think when you enjoy something, it’s sustainable. And if it feels like horrible, dragging work, you’re not going to do it.” –RM “If I’m scared of it, it’s probably a good idea.” –JS
Making Time For Marketing
Are you making enough time for marketing? Talking Points How many hours a week to spend marketing How marketing can be devalued because it’s not billable Making the time for marketing How to block out marketing time Thinking of marketing as a deadline Reaching the point where marketing becomes an automatic thing Making public commitments How daily marketing can add up Farming vs. hunting Being honest about what isn’t working Quotable Quotes “It doesn’t happen if you don’t make time for it. Even when you’re not billing by the hour, it can be hard to create – I would call the marketing habit.” –JS “Marketing should always be on your mind if you have a business. That’s part of the mindset, you never let it go.” –RM “I think when you enjoy something, it’s sustainable. And if it feels like horrible, dragging work, you’re not going to do it.” –RM “If I’m scared of it, it’s probably a good idea.” –JS LINKSRochelle | Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | InstagramJonathan | Daily List | Website | Ditcherville | LinkedIn | Twitter